There are no J-penholders left

I'm a new convert to JPen (4 months playing JPen vs 6 years playing overall) as well as new member to this site. I'm currently deployed to Afghanistan, and while there are a number of very good players from around the globe here, I'm not only the lone JPen player, I'm also the only penhold player of any kind. Unfortunately, this means every last bit of my "skills" if you can call it that are self-taught. Every day I play, I try to choose one aspect of the game that I'll mentally focus on, even if it means other aspects of my game suffer. I've also found it helpful to use my smartphone to record some of my games- placing it at the net is an unobtrusive way to get great footage that I'll then watch back when I get some time.

Hi, Eric. Finally! We are two! I also started playing c-pen many years ago and about 8 years later I jumped to j-pen. Like you I am self taught (although the change for me wasn't that hard). Everything was different, the strategy, the tactics, the footwork, etc. But the most intriguing aspect of all continues to be the grip. I had to develop my own. Adapted to my poor footwork in order to cover every aspect of the game at my level (I'm around 2000 rating USA). Eric, my whole interest here is to help each other to get better. Not to beat the hell out of our opponents (that too) But to get as good as possible so we can remain more comfortably in the game for the rest of our lives. Personally, I find table tennis to be an incredibly healthy and fun sport worthy to be passionate about.

By the way, Alois, thanks again for pingskills!

Yeah!  Hopefully we will find more for you.

whats the differencve in j penholer vs chinese penhold.; Some say its they dont use rpb but some say its because of the bat. which one or is it both?

Hello, Mat. Both differences are true basically. I remember in the 90's asian players using very well j-pen rpb in the US Open. Although in the beginning no one used the rpb there were basic differences in the approach to the strategy of all attacking styles: The chinese stuck to the table while the japanese played close and mid distance and used the backhand as a stroke not only blocking. That was in the 1950's and 60's when China and Japan rose internationally among the best players. IMO the c-pen is less demanding because the racket is more agile playing over the table while j-pen requires the player to be an outstanding athlete to keep up w/ other styles easier to play. You can see the results of the best exponents of j-pen against all other styles. Then in the early 90's Liu Guoliang debuted w/. rpb. and became one of the best of all times.

Well let's cherish Ryu Seung Min while we still can

Ryu Seung Min and Kaii Yoshida are the players I youtube whenever I need to look at how a pro handles a certain aspect of the game. There are some RSM videos on there of just training sessions, from different angles and performing different shots, including serves, which have been especially helpful

Kaii Yoshida is one of my favorites. Another one I follow is Lee Jungwoo because he's lefty (like me), also Yoo Nam Kyu. For me the more fun to watch was Kim Taek Soo. Look for a match between him and Samsonov in 2002. Wang Jiang Jung was selected to adopt j-pen in order to train the chinese team after RSM beat them in the Olympics 2004 (he was incredible!). Ri Chol Guk, from N Korea is also worthy to be studied. But all of them have something in common we, at our level, lack: footwork. They have motorcycles in their feet. That's why I find so important to have a very good b/h. And this is one big reason I am looking for help in this forum.

I used to play c/pen but then I changed to j/pen then I changed to shake hand

Hi, Keenan. In case you keep jumping I would like you to stay as j-pen so we are more people learning and teaching each other how to play better. I'm willing to.

I play j-pen whenever I can and sometimes it's j-pen tournamets

Wow! Where is that? Sounds like ping-pong paradise.

I guess I'm a couple years late reading this... sorry about that but I just started playing again about 8 months ago.  I first learned for real in 2004 and got coached for 1 year, then moved away but picked it back up in 2010 but only for 6 months.  Anyways, I love your enthusiasm for the J-pen, I'm exclusively J-pen (in 2004 got a Kim Taek Soo bat and now I have a Ryu Seung Min Gmax bat) and have only played in Korea.... even Koreans are changing their style trying to get me to do it as well but there's no way I'll ever even consider... table tennis is too fun playing this style and I believe it's just a trend.... (so many long pimp defenders here now in Korea trying to emulate Joo Sey Hyuk...)

Reason you probably didn't get many replies is because Koreans and Japanese are not on this site or can't read English well enough to contribute.  But believe me, here in Korea at the amateur level there are many J-pen players left and with Ryu being named national coach a few months ago I'm hoping somehow that will translate to more top level players breaking through the ranks causing a renewal of the old trend.  

Let's not forget the only two Gold medals men's singles for Korea have been J-pen and for what it's worth Ma Lin can be considered that as well since he hardly ever uses his b/h c pen stroke....

anyways, hit me back up if you want to talk more... I'm kind of incoherent now but had to answer after reading this cause I feel like I'm on the same  quest as you for keeping this 'not quite just yet' lost art alive....

i used to play j-pen but with chinese grip, i just recently switched to shake hand :( ....

hmm? I'm not sure what you mean Bennett - do you mean you had a J-Pen racket with rubber on one side with the cork for the finger grip (i.e. J-pen) but held it all wrong? or ... I imagine you mean you were using a bat similar to shake hand with a smaller handle with rubber one both sides (Chinese penhold or C-pen) and maybe you mean your style was that of a J-pen holder in that you never used the other side of your bat ... ????  I'm just curious.

How do you feel about the switch to shake hand... tough transition?  

Hi Daniel

I'm a JPenner, with a RSM G Max + Tenergy 64. I'm completely self-taught- I made the transition from shakehand to CPen to JPen because as a shakehander, I simply could not break my habits of blocking and defending when I should attack, and any time I did try to loop or loop drive, the result was a point for my opponent. Switching to JPen absolutely forced me out of that habit- it's impossible to be a defensive player this way, and I have tons more fun playing! Still working hard on my form though, which is tough because the form has to change based on the rubber. For example, I've used a super high-throw rubber, but that got me in trouble against choppers. My Sriver just wasnt fast or spinny enough for my taste, and now I'm getting used to my T64. What rubber do you use? How far from the table do you usually find yourself? Do you usually look to attack the 3rd ball, and if so, what's your "go-to" serve?

-Eric

 Hi Eric, that's awesome to hear you made the switch - good for you, the game in my opinion is so much funner I agree but it can be pretty tough without any coaches that are proficient in that style.  Where do you play?  I'm lucky because I live in Korea so there are clubs everywhere to chose from and there's always a lot of top players and coaches who are there to help you... and they think it's pretty cool to see a foreigner play their style.

You made a good choice with the Gmax - sweet racket.  I had  a T64 rubber a while back but then tried out the T80 but just recently changed to the Tenergy 05 - by far my favorite for looping and long drives.  The T80 is a mix between T05 and T64 so you might like that.  A lot of women penholders here like T64 cause they stand real close to the net and just relentlessly smash it on you... lol but for longer driving rallies you seem to have so much more feel for the ball with the T50 (My opinion is that your form will not have to change (not significantly anyways) between these three rubber options so I'd keep playing with the T64 until it wears out (which depending how much you play it can be quite quick) and then try a different one.... your preference ultimately will be based on your style and skill level.... but whatever, it's always nice to have the best equipment and the coolest racket... ^-^

Concerning your last two questions - it's funny cause you pinpointed my weaknesses... Ironically enough the only reason I would ever consider changing to shakehand is for the same reason you switched to J-pen.  I find myself way too often defending long rallies far from the table with my back hand and looking for a chance to step around one of the shots and counterattacking with a vicious forehand drive.... but that said, I am stronger far from the table because I have good control with the backhand and I have a really good backhand drive and opposed to when I closer and have to block (it might be because when you block (BH) your body should be in front of the ball so it requires a lot of quickness and anticipation.  My go too serve will always depend on my opponent... ex. we have a lot of long pimp defenders here so vs. them I actually don't need to worry much about how good my serve is... I simply send a long cut serve to the back side and prepare for FH drive (it's the 5th ball that can be tough vs. them cause of the amount of backspin on the ball following your topspin and I don't love cut pushing the 5th to than attack the 7th... lol.  Vs. good attacking players serving long is an adventure and you should look to block but you need to be covering the corner of the table with your body to push it back down the line and if that shot didn't win it for you you'll be sure to be in position to take control of the attack in the point... if you push block it back cross the table be ready to continually block and look to step around one and FH drive it down the line.  So having a good short serve is key vs. those guys... again while you are learning and improving try stuff out and have fun... 

Sorry, I'm going on a bit long here so if you are still with me congrats ... lol   Feel free to ask me more questions and if I don't know the answer I'll relay it to my coach (left handed J-pen who has Kim Taek Soo's phone number on speed dial ... lol  that's actually true)

Before leaving you my last recommendations would be to watch videos of Kim Taek Soo and Ryu Seung Min (but maybe not RSM in his prime cause he moved just way too fast - unless you have that kind of foot work)  But like go on YouTube (sorry Alois - you don't have many videos for J-pen... lol) and watch some old late 90's videos of Taek Soo and pay attention to his position on the table ... when there's a good shot he made or a good close up angle of his service motion press the slow motion option and study. They both also have on youtube training videos that can help a great deal even though they are explaining stuff in Korean.  

I look forward to hearing how your progress is going - have fun and enjoy the coolest the style in T.T> 

Daniel Bibeau

Hi. I am Eduardo, the one who started asking about j-penholders a while ago. Finally!! Two real enthusiasts of j-pen. I'm really looking forward to exchange our experiences w/. both of you. I have been playing j-pen for many years now but, like one of you said, self taught. Regards.

oh, i meant that i used a jpen paddle because i liked the big cork support but i had rubber on backside and played with curled fingers

the tranistion was not tough.  the first time i tried shakehand it was hard because there was no ond to properly teach me

Hello, Mr. Bibeau. May I ask you how in the world did you learn to perform good backhand drives? I have been trying for many years to engineer the position of the racket in my hand, the stroke, etc. and it's still not reliable enough. 

Hi Eduardo

For me, the backhand drive comes in two flavors- the punch block, and the awkward-jump-attempt-at-a-topspin shot. The punch block is a normal block, where I roll my thumb over the handle, curl my back fingers, and punch my arm forward to drive the ball where I want it to go. The other one is something I learned from watching a lot of Ryu Seung Min videos, however I cannot use it very effectively yet. Basically, it appears that RSM hops into the air when the ball is coming at his backhand, with the requirement that it be fairly close to his body. Then, at the height of his jump, he stomps down, which propels his upper half upwards, allowing his bat to make more of a topspin style stroke on the ball. I usually dont do that for a number of reasons, but if you watch enough of him playing on YouTube you'll see what I mean.

Alright hey guys... quick reply for tonight - I'm quite tired and about to go to bed.

First to Bennett, o.k. yeah I know what you mean now... I've seen a few players try something like that but in my opinion it defeats the purpose of having a J-pen by weighing down the racket quite a bit and for that kind of reverse backhand shot you are much better off just having a Chinese pen hold racket - but I'm not in any position to judge and table tennis is that much better with varying styles... Actually a month or so ago the player who beat me in quarters of a pretty big tournament had a J-pen racket with short pimps on his forehand and long pimps on the back (bullshit I'd say but man was it ever a headache to play against... lol)  Anyways, cool thanks for clarifying, was just curious.

Mr. Eduardo - if ever we find each other in the same country we'll have to have a match against each other some time!  I love to play vs. players who truly love and appreciate the J-pen.  The backhand drive in my opinion is not actually as difficult as it seems... of course being lucky to live and play in Korea with proper J-pen coaches who have competed at the top levels their whole lives helps a lot, and with the use of a robot and box lessons it's inevitable you'll develop it I guess.  Giving you suggestions in writing might be a little tough so I'll try to make a short video to demonstrate what I mean.  First thing to keep in mind however is that obviously your backhand is not your primary shot and that why (assuming right handed player) stands so far to the left of the table when receiving a serve and stays to the left of the table after serving.... that's to A) be able to attack most shots with your forehand B) cut off the wide angles to your backhand and block drives back where your position to the ball should be directly in front of it... and receiving long serves to the corner with your backhand is ridiculous, you either have to cut it back (not bad but weak) or push it back which is even weaker... you should always look to attack those with your forehand.  (vs. left handed opponent you have to tweak your position a bit though.... probably why a lot of J-penners have a hard time vs. lefties.)

So, to start - your fingers must be properly positioned.  Make sure they are not spread at all, actually the only finger that should actually be touching the back of your racket is your middle finger, your ring finger should  be on top of that and your back finger doesn't touch at all.  (I'll add a photo of what I mean if you want in a day or too)  I'm not doing that perfectly exactly where my ring finger is usually placed just beside the middle - it's terrible but not perfect)  By having your fingers correctly placed on the back of your racket will ensure you have enough of an angle on your racket when you go for your backhand.  With flat fingers you'll notice you don't have nearly the same range when you flip your wrist from forehand to backhand.... For the backhand drive your grip doesn't change at all.... for the push of course as Eric mentioned your grip will change by rolling that thumb or whatever.    

Your legs and waist should be exactly as your forehand drive motion but in reverse.... weight on you left leg downwards, rotate your hips or waist going around and up as your weight shifts to the right leg... notice when you watch those shots from RSM or I think Kim Taek Soo is better to study for this particular shot, the trajectory of the racket from low beside your left hip to high across your right shoulder... too many players are trying to go across their bodies.  

Remember that this shot is not actually used that often with full power.... it's usually a defensive shot that should return the ball close to 100% and then when a certain ball comes than go for it with power, pivot to your forehand after and crush the next ball.  You will hardly ever see a J-pen player drive backhand for more than one consecutive shot,, after a hard drive they'll always switch to forehand or revert to a more relaxed defensive backhand.

Hope this helped a bit and maybe to help you more accurately you can tell me a bit more about what you are having problems with more specifically.   Remember key:  1. finger locations 2. weight transfer from left to right leg with hip rotation 3. and crucially the illogically feeling extension of your racket well over your right shoulder with your elbow at roughly 90 degree angle upon finish position.  Good luck bros.... go get em.

correction:  ... and your back finger shouldn't touch at all - that should say baby finger

Hello again, J-pen enthusiasts! First, my apologies for not following through immediately in our conversations of last week. I had a cruise vacation. But I'm more than motivated to continue. First thanks to both of you for been so helpful w/ your detailed explanations of the backhand drive. I can relate very well w/ both approaches. Even though I have never had the privilege of a coach teaching me, I have seen plenty of videos from Kim Taek Soo, Yoshida Kai, Lee Jung Woo, Chiang Peng Lung, Cazuo Matsumoto, etc. Seems more than anything now after reading your good advises that my problem is poor stroke selection. Of course, There is also the age speed limitations, I'm 64. I'm also lefty, so everybody attacks my backhand. Nevertheless my US rating is somewhere 1800-2000. And yes, Mr. Bibeau I would totally love to meet and play w/ you. Of course, this is not a challenge.

Hello Mr. Eduardo, hope you enjoyed your cruise.  Thank you mentioning a few more names of players I can watch, as you know finding videos of matches with penholders gets repetitive.  I'm watching some of Chiang Peng Lung and Matsumoto at the moment.  Good timing as well since I'm out of commission for a while after straining something in my lower back last week in practice... tried playing a tournament over the weekend regardless but that wasn't a very good idea.... on top of that midway through the tourney I broke my RSM Gmax racket... split right in half.  Bad week for me.

I'm not sure what level exactly US 1800-2000 is but it sounds like you're a very good player already, I've never played in the States though so I would have no idea how to compare.  I do know that I've played vs. quite a few players your age using penhold and some of them can beat me easily without even moving... I think the way a lot of announcers on broadcasts describe the need for superior athletic ability with the J-pen can discourage us amateurs (while what they say is somewhat true at the top pros level) I disagree with a lot of what they have to say when applied to us club level players.  

Writing this also helps me as well put ideas into perspective so thank you again for starting this post, my wife laughs at me while I'm writing because I'm so into it.  lol  It helps me a lot though writing it because I'm now able to think about what I've been taught and the possible reasons for doing so.  Best example is the need to stand on the left side of the table (for you as a lefty, the right side)... I always tend to drift to the middle of the table after serving or receiving - giving my opponent a nice wide angle on my back side to attack, being forced to block (defensive) on balls played in the middle and having much less opportunity to attack myself on balls played to my FH.  After writing my last post I really concentrated on staying in the left corner to block (push backhand with ball positioned in center of your body - since unlike shake hand players you can't drive with ball in center of your body....  to drive BH you need to drop step your left foot (for you your right) and take the ball at it's peak or on it's way down - can't really do it on the rise - the block though should be on the rise) ...  This gives my opponents very few options, hit it to my BH where I'll be blocking balls all day on the rise giving him very little time to react, or go to my FH where I can attack.   I've been told this so many times by high level J'pen players here in Korea but it never sank in until I wrote it down then I felt a sort of break through during last weeks training (that's why I'm so upset now about screwing up my back).  

One more story that might motivate you.... I've been watching over the last few weeks a top level amateur player/coach here take down 2 tournaments - one small one at our club and just this Sunday a big provincial one.  This guy is no where near athletic and at our club (small space to really move much) he stood close to the table and simply blocked his way to first, wasn't even trying - his blocks though were dimensional I noticed, not just flat returns but tilting his racket and redirecting the ball wherever he wanted with a variety of different side spins.  Of course in the bigger tournament where he had more room vs. much stronger opponents he had to actually play yet as a bigger and slower player using J'pen he destroyed a young athletic top player using shake hand.  

Point being - all the noise I hear about having to be a superior athlete to be able to negate the weakness of your backhand and that the game has passed J'pen players by is totally wrong when applied to 99% of us players (might only be true when talking about top 20 players in the world - and if you are going to be top 20, I'm pretty sure you have to be a superior athlete anyway).  I will fight tooth and nail to keep this style alive because as you say - it's a beautiful style of play and you can rest assured you have a partner in this fight.   

Oh, and I'm pretty sure we are close to the same level so yes it is a challenge!!! albeit a friendly one of course..... hehehe

p.s. maybe we write more often so my posts don't have to be so long, sorry for that.

Mr. Bibeau, I love long letters about j-pen. So don't worry. I have come to the conclusion that one of my problems w/ my backhand is that I have too many ways to hold the racket. First, for many years I held it how I think Chiang Peng Lung holds it. with the handle bearing on the first knuckle of my forefinger, b-hand & f-hand. It's very efficient on your b-hand and so so on your f-hand. So is a compromise. And is very good if you want to play stuck to the table just blocking. One downside: You have to trim your racket and it becomes slippery when switch to any other "style". But I saw too many videos from Kim Taek Soo showing the handle right in the "hole" between the thumb and the forefinger so I thought instead of playing like a traditional c-pen I should change to play a little farther even if it would be more demanding physically. Here is where the athleticism issue begins. You don't have to be an athlete, only your legs have to be as strong as they can be. Like you said, in our level is not an issue. To some players I have noticed my block is not strong but simply annoying. And that is how I get to use my f-hand without being athletic. Mr. Bibeau, it's 11:25 in Miami so I have to let you go. Bye for now. Probably I'll put my ideas together next time.

Mr. Bibeau, By the way I feel sorry about your loss. I don't mean your loss at the tournament, but braking the RSM GMAX...Ouch!! I should have told you the other night not to throw it away, fix it! Just don't touch or rip any splinter away.Try not to brake the back sheet of cork. Place both halves together on a perfectly flat surface and glue them back with a thin viscosity cyanoacrylate glue. Use a glass so you can see through and make sure there will be not even a line when dried. If you are meticulous in the process (and it's worth to be) you will be using it again fast, it only takes 15 secs to dry! Although it takes longer to completely cure. You can buy the glue in a hobby center or order it from a store like "micromark.com". It's 12:06 am again and I need to go to sleep. Bye!

Hello Mr. Espinoso... thanks for the advice on fixing my racket.  I actually had to do something like that to my Kim taek soo racket a few years ago - that's the one I'm using now again until I fix this one or go out and buy another one.  I'm not sure how I'll be able to fix this one though, but as you said, it's worth a shot - those are pretty expensive rackets.  

If you have a facebook account you are welcome to add me (Daniel Bibeau) and you can have a look at a few pictures I took of it.

My wife just cooked dinner so I'll have to go now, but I have a few questions for you when I have more time to sit in front of my computer.

Cheers for now,

Bibeau

Hi, Mr. Bibeau. Lucky us whose good wives "interrupt" to offer a nice dinner!! Let me tell you while you come back w/ your questions. Don't forget to check on Wang Jian Jung on 2006 playing w/. Wang Liqin. And also against Ma Lin. They say that after China lost to Korea in 2004, they picked W J J to train the Chinese team to play against the apparently dangerous korean j-pens! After that you may find him playing the new rbp c-pen w/ good results.